$CATV - New CEO, Patents, Acquisitions, Multiple Revenue-Generating Businesses, Fully Integrated CBD Chain 4Cable TV International, Inc. (OTC: CATV) is determined to become a fully integrated Global CBD/Hemp business from seed to sale. Farming is where it all starts, and distribution is where it all goes. Today 4Cable TV, International, Inc. moves one of its chess pieces by announcing it is acquiring CIGN, LLC. As a result of the acquisition, revenues for 2021 are expected to be in the millions of dollars. $CATV will be OTC PINK Soon https://www.otcmarkets.com/stock/CATV/news/story?e&id=1797202 https://drive.google.com/file/d/1TL6i6MHPtnMQCKcAZ9BgYTMxQNI5LWRF/view Company Website: http://www.4cabletvint.com/#home Company Email [email protected] NEW CEO Since Dec 18th 2020 Michael Feldenkrais https://youtu.be/ArFs-b0ww_Y https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelfeldenkraislawyer His largest accomplishment came when he organized several mergers and acquisitions with a Canadian publicly traded company Amaya Gaming that resulted in the increase of its market cap from 50 million dollars to 4.9 billion dollars in less than 2 years. Amaya Gaming In Deal To Buy PokerStars For $4.9 Billion One of the most high-stakes, controversial and intriguing business stories in the history of the modern gambling industry is heading toward its conclusion. PokerStars, the world’s biggest online poker company, has agreed to sell itself for $4.9 billion to Amaya Gaming, a small publicly-traded Canadian supplier of gambling equipment. https://www.forbes.com/sites/nathanvardi/2014/06/12/amaya-gaming-in-deal-to-buy-pokerstars-for-4-9-billion/?sh=3286a4104469 Experience: Over 20 Years of Professional Experience: Michael, is a well recognized attorney that has appeared on all major Spanish and English television networks. Michael manages a successful media, lead generation,gaming and marketing portfolio. CANNABIS In this video below Michael Feldenkrais is talking about how excited he is to start growing the plants and the business. https://thefloridachannel.org/videos/capitol-update-extended-hemp-applications-open/ In the Cannabis space, Mr. Feldenkrais has been very active for the last 6 years from intellectual property, cultivation, manufacturing, distribution, and retail. (Seed to Sale). Starting his Cannabis career, he focused on acquiring intellectual property in Israel to deploying such in the United States, Central and South America, and the Caribbean. In recent years he built a franchise company to open 22 Medical Clinics recommending the use of Cannabis andsold a total of 50 franchised locations in less than one year. He then concentrated his efforts in cultivating Cannabis in Florida out of a state-of-the-art Cravo greenhouse in Homestead for commercial and research purposes under the auspices of the University of Florida. Entrepreneur: Early in his career, he built two of the largest Prepaid Cellular Phone Card distribution companies in Colombia and Venezuela, wherein he deployed a distribution model using informal workers and converting them into main-stream employees giving jobs to over 14,500 people. Media and Corporate Related Experience: In 2008 he developed a success based marketing system. He has proven expertise in the operations, management and procedure implementation of media campaigns, lead generation software, and lead analytics. He expanded the companies business into the gaming category closing transactions in the hundreds of millions of dollars. The company has relationships with television production companies, casino companies, motion pictures companies and more. Using Success Based Marketing, he guided the company and all its aspects from creating the proprietary lead software, harnessing lead analytic's for re-marketing, to purchasing media for lead creation, and to the creative production of the media campaigns that would generate the most response for the money spent. Lawyer Experience: Respected and trusted television spokesperson. All the major television stations have contacted Michael to speak on legal issues. He has appeared regularly in television and radio, both nationally and internationally as both a consultant and a host. Has produced several television shows and has appeared regularly on TV stations like Univision, NBC, and Telemundo. https://www.floridabar.org/directories/find-mbprofile/?num=991708 Specialties: Business Development and Management / Media Production and Distribution /Mergers and Acquisitions/ Corporate, International, and Immigration Law Since he has been CEO of $CATV
Has acquired 3 new revenue producing companies in 3 weeks. Health Care and Wellness Clinics of America, LLC ("HCWCOA"), and Corporation Clinic, LLC ("Corporation Clinic") Chai MD, Hip n Chai and Get Medicated.
LOI for CIGN a 4th revenue producing company (He is already CEO of CIGN) They're finalizing the acquisition of CIGN Farms in FL. They grow and distribute hemp and hemp seeds for CBD products, etc.
Jan 8th PR saying Filings Imminent and are excited to announce thatit is estimating the filing of its financial statement and disclosuresin the coming weeks..
$CATV - New CEO, Patents, Acquisitions, Multiple Revenue-Generating Businesses, Fully Integrated CBD Chain 4Cable TV International, Inc. (OTC: CATV) is determined to become a fully integrated Global CBD/Hemp business from seed to sale. Farming is where it all starts, and distribution is where it all goes. Today 4Cable TV, International, Inc. moves one of its chess pieces by announcing it is acquiring CIGN, LLC. As a result of the acquisition, revenues for 2021 are expected to be in the millions of dollars. $CATV will be OTC PINK Soon https://www.otcmarkets.com/stock/CATV/news/story?e&id=1797202 Company Website: http://www.hcwcoa.com NEW CEO Since Dec 18th 2020 Michael Feldenkrais https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelfeldenkraislawyer Amaya Gaming In Deal To Buy PokerStars For $4.9 Billion His largest accomplishment came when he organized several mergers and acquisitions with a Canadian publicly traded company Amaya Gaming that resulted in the increase of its market cap from 50 million dollars to 4.9 billion dollars in less than 2 years. One of the most high-stakes, controversial and intriguing business stories in the history of the modern gambling industry is heading toward its conclusion. PokerStars, the world’s biggest online poker company, has agreed to sell itself for $4.9 billion to Amaya Gaming, a small publicly-traded Canadian supplier of gambling equipment. https://www.forbes.com/sites/nathanvardi/2014/06/12/amaya-gaming-in-deal-to-buy-pokerstars-for-4-9-billion/?sh=3286a4104469 Experience: Over 20 Years of Professional Experience: Michael, is a well recognized attorney that has appeared on all major Spanish and English television networks. Michael manages a successful media, lead generation,gaming and marketing portfolio. CANNABIS In this video below Michael Feldenkrais is talking about how excited he is to start growing the plants and the business. https://thefloridachannel.org/videos/capitol-update-extended-hemp-applications-open/ In the Cannabis space, Mr. Feldenkrais has been very active for the last 6 years from intellectual property, cultivation, manufacturing, distribution, and retail. (Seed to Sale). Starting his Cannabis career, he focused on acquiring intellectual property in Israel to deploying such in the United States, Central and South America, and the Caribbean. In recent years he built a franchise company to open 22 Medical Clinics recommending the use of Cannabis andsold a total of 50 franchised locations in less than one year. He then concentrated his efforts in cultivating Cannabis in Florida out of a state-of-the-art Cravo greenhouse in Homestead for commercial and research purposes under the auspices of the University of Florida. Entrepreneur: Early in his career, he built two of the largest Prepaid Cellular Phone Card distribution companies in Colombia and Venezuela, wherein he deployed a distribution model using informal workers and converting them into main-stream employees giving jobs to over 14,500 people. Media and Corporate Related Experience: In 2008 he developed a success based marketing system. He has proven expertise in the operations, management and procedure implementation of media campaigns, lead generation software, and lead analytics. He expanded the companies business into the gaming category closing transactions in the hundreds of millions of dollars. The company has relationships with television production companies, casino companies, motion pictures companies and more. Using Success Based Marketing, he guided the company and all its aspects from creating the proprietary lead software, harnessing lead analytic's for re-marketing, to purchasing media for lead creation, and to the creative production of the media campaigns that would generate the most response for the money spent. Lawyer Experience: Respected and trusted television spokesperson. All the major television stations have contacted Michael to speak on legal issues. He has appeared regularly in television and radio, both nationally and internationally as both a consultant and a host. Has produced several television shows and has appeared regularly on TV stations like Univision, NBC, and Telemundo. https://www.floridabar.org/directories/find-mbprofile/?num=991708 Specialties: Business Development and Management / Media Production and Distribution /Mergers and Acquisitions/ Corporate, International, and Immigration Law Since he has been CEO of $CATV
Has acquired 3 new revenue producing companies in 3 weeks. Health Care and Wellness Clinics of America, LLC ("HCWCOA"), and Corporation Clinic, LLC ("Corporation Clinic") Chai MD, Hip n Chai & Get Medicated.
LOI for CIGN a 4th revenue producing company (He is already CEO of CIGN) They're finalizing the acquisition of CIGN Farms in FL. They grow and distribute hemp and hemp seeds for CBD products, etc.
Jan 8th PR saying Filings Imminent and are excited to announce thatit is estimating the filing of its financial statement and disclosuresin the coming weeks..
Hi, I have been a professional poker player for the past 3.5 years and have been following poker and the community for the past 8 years. Also, I am a current ADA holder. After learning about the blockchain, I saw the benefits that could be obtained by running a poker site on one. I think a well done poker website on a blockchain could kill every other kind of poker site and would love to see this come to fruition. However, to create a huge poker site that rivals the likes of PokerStars requires a ton of money, experience and a huge team. Therefore, I am a bit lost at how to proceed. I guess hopefully this post catches the eyes of someone that is looking for an idea and has the expertise, team, and capabilities to pull it off. Below I have listed the current problems that plague the poker industry, all which can be fixed by the blockchain. After, I list the challenges that would be faced if someone tried this endeavor. Problems with Current Poker Industry:
High Rake: The percentage of money the casino operator takes from each hand, known as rake, is ridiculous across all major poker sites. At the lowest stakes, the games are close to unbeatable because the operator is taking such a large percentage of the money off the table each hand. Additionally, tournaments charge registration fees of up to 10% per tournament!
Trust: From companies being caught with backdoor super user accounts to companies not being able to play out player to trusting whether or not the RNG is rigged, there is an inherit lack of trust in the online poker community. Especially in the US in states where poker is not legal, there are now many off-shore poker sites that operate a ton of money, yet are not regulated at all by the government. It is only a matter of time before this all goes bad in my opinion.
Community at odds with Operators: For the last 10 years that I have been in the poker community, there has always been a rivalry and tension between the players and the poker site operators, mainly PokerStars. Essentially, some time paces and PokerStars raises the rake. The players complain, try to boycott and take other measures, all to no avail. Especially 5 years ago, PokerStars had a strangle hold on the industry. Recently, some other big sites like GG Poker, Party Poker, and Run It Once have gained market share. Despite the increased competition, rake is high across all sites and the players feel like the companies only care about profit. With a decentralized poker site, the community can now come together and run the poker site using Voltaire (I think) to create the first ever poker site for the players, something the community is longing for badly in my opinion.
Challenges:
Building the site: For a site to truly steal market share and compete, the software has to be elite. Run It Once is a recently launched poker operator, and they built their software by scratch and it took multiple years, overshooting all their deadlines and they still have only realized maybe 25% of what they plan to release. I am not sure how to solve this problem.
USA Market: Poker is not legal in the US except in a handful of states.
Licenses and Regulation: Would need many licenses to operate and would take a lot of time and money I assume
Bots: Players using software in real time and/or using bots that actually play for them is one of the biggest issues facing the poker industry today. If somehow Cardano could alleviate this problem in any way that would be huge. But if not, then a decent amount of money and effort would need to be allocated toward security of the site regarding bots. Who would pay for this now and moving forward? Treasury? Seems like this is the biggest expense that would be tough to manage as a decentralized community. Especially with new companies like Poker King coming out that are using their security team against bots as their competitive advantage.
A lot of competition: It seems like in the last 5 years, many new companies have gained market share. Additionally, there are some other blockchain based poker companies already in the works for a while now (Virtue Poker https://virtue.poke).
If anyone wants to run with this idea it is all yours and would be glad to help. I have been working relentlessly at poker the last 3.5 years to become one of the best in the world. In the process, I know what the players and community desires and lacks. I would love to have a strategic role in a site like this and really just want to solve the problems that I face everyday as a professional poker player.
Ultimate Casino Cashback Guide - Earn over £500 - Every Offer Explained!
This guide aims to outline all of the best gambling cashback offers available over a range of sites, following this guide you should be able to make over £500 in cashback Note - Cashback often takes a while to payout, bear this in mind when completing offers as you may have to wait to cashout your earnings When completing these offers don't chase any loses as the cashback will give you a profit with nerly every offer A short review of each site and some referral links Topcashback - Cashback will show as tracked within a few days, can take a few weeks to become payable, in some cases even longer, asides from gambling they have great offers for car insurance and mobile phone contracts, worth taking a look to save some extra money! Ref - Extra £5 when you make £10 cashback Non-Ref - No reward Quidco - Much the same as Topcashback Ref Non-Ref Minimum payment - £10 Ohmydosh - Faster Payouts but less offers Ref - Extra £1 Non-Ref - No reward Minimum payout - Any Cashback Earners - A lesser known site in need of a fresh look, this site also has some bad reviews, referal income is paid to the site on a monthly basis with the dates for each site being different, offers don't seem to show as tracked until the website receive their payment, cashback should appear in your account within 1 month of completing an offer. Cashout amounts are specific, its best to build up a balance and then withdraw. Payment takes around 3 weeks. Ref - Sign up bonus £6.5 Non-Ref - Sign up bonus £6.5 Minimum payout is £20 Payment Proof - Payments for all sites can be seen here, quidco isn't shown as i have signed up for all the casinos on offer through topcashback
How to Maximize Profit - IMPORTANT - READ THIS
For the majority of these offers you want to play blackjack following the chart found here Any blackjack game will do, look for a normal version of the game at the site you are playing on and make sure it is a non live game as the hand sizes will be lower. When playing blackjack there will often be more than one spot that you can bet on, allowing the player to bet more than one hand at a time, Its important to only bet on one spot at a time as it reduces the variance of the game and will ensure you get the maximum return possible from the game, stick to £1 hand sizes when playing and dont be tempted to bet larger amounts as you will be getting a nice amount of cashback from every offer Through playing blackjack this way the player will get a return of around 98%, meaning for every £100 staked you will lose around £2. If you make a loss on a casino site after completing the required wagering amount, withdraw your remaining balance, don't chase loses as the cashback will make up for loses and give you a profit in most cases. All offers are updated fairly regularly, make sure to check the terms for each offer as information in this post may become outdated. Also check for other offers every now and then as new casinos are added!
TopCashBack Offers - £400+ Profit
Topcashback Referral - Get an extra £5 - See the Ref Link at the top of the page! If you dont already have an account at top cashback, you can sign up through my referral to get an extra £5 added to you account once you make £10 cashback Lottoland - Cashback £15 Add £11 and play 11 separate £1 hands, following the strategy outlined at the top of the post, withdraw any remaining balance. Betfair Casino - Cashback £70 Note this is not the poker offer Add £50 to your account and play 50 single £1 hands on blackjack following the strategy outlined at the top of the post, withdraw any remaining balance. Quidco are offering £100 for this offer Party Casino - Cashback £26.5 Deposit and play 30 single £1 hand son blackjack following the strategy outlined at the top of the post, withdraw any remaining balance. Tombola - Cashback £24.5 Deposit £10 and open the tombola roulette game, choose a £1 chip size and choose 5 spots, repeat this twice, withdraw any remaining balance, you will likely lose money here but the cashback will give you a profit Coral - Cashback £46 Add £10 and play 10 single £1 hands on blackjack following the strategy outlined at the top of the post, withdraw any remaining balance. Bingoport - Cashback £3 Sign up to bingoport to get an easy £3 Ladbrokes - Cashback £42 Add £10 to your account and play 10 single £1 hands on blackjack following the strategy outlined at the top of the post, withdraw any remaining balance. Pokerstars - Cashback £32 Add £25 and play 25 single £1 hands on blackjack following the strategy outlined at the top of the post, withdraw any remaining balance. STS - Cashback £21 Add £30 to your account and play 30 single £1 hands on blackjack following the strategy outlined at the top of the post, withdraw any remaining balance. William Hill - Cashback £54 add £25 and play 25 single £1 hands on blackjack following the strategy outlined at the top of the post, withdraw any remaining balance. Megacasino - £15.75 Add £25 - Play 25 single £1 hands on blackjack following the strategy outlined at the top of the post, withdraw any remaining balance. LottoGo - Cashback £3.18 Buy a euromillions ticket Slingo - Cashback £24.75 Add £10 play 10 single £1 hands on blackjack following the strategy outlined at the top of the post, withdraw any remaining balance. PaddyPower Games - Cashback £20 Add £10 play 10 single £1 hands on blackjack following the strategy outlined at the top of the post, withdraw any remaining balance. The Football Pools - Cashback £24.75 Sign up for the £10 a month subscription, cancel this after 30 days Lottomart - Cashback £18 Add £10 - Play 10 single £1 hands on blackjack following the strategy outlined at the top of the post, withdraw any remaining balance. Genting Slots - Cashback £25 Add £30 play 30 single £1 hands on blackjack following the strategy outlined at the top of the post, withdraw any remaining balance. OhMyDosh - Cashback £40+ Referral gives an extra £1, sign up through the ref link at the top of the post to get the bonus! Gala Bingo - Cashback £17.50 Deposit at least £5, you'll get a £10 slots bonus and 100 free spins, these carry hefty wagering requirements, Open any slot and play the minimum spin size, play until you lose all of the money in your account or complete the wagering requirements on the bonus funds. Withdraw any remaining balance. BGO - £10 Cashback Deposit at least £15. Play 15 single £1 hands on blackjack following the strategy outlined at the top of the post, withdraw any remaining balance. DONT ACCEPT the welcome bonus from BGO. Lottosocial - Cashback £4 Sign up to Lotto Social - Use your correct phone number when joining as it is the only way to login to your account. Purchase 10 lines for £1, after making a purchase go to your account page and find the list of syndicates your are in, leave the syndicates to avoid making any more payments. Cheeky Bingo - £10 Cashback Deposit £10 and get a £40 welcome bonus, just play bingo with all of your funds and hope to get some wins, bonus has 4x wagering requirements.
Quidco - Cashback £100+
Quidco don't offer a sign up bonus, find my ref link at the top of the post if you want to help me out! All of the offers on quidco are much the same as topcashback, the only offer worth noting is the betfair casino offer which pays £100 Betfair - £100 cashback Add £100 and play 100 single £1 hands on blackjack following the strategy outlined at the top of the post, withdraw any remaining balance.
Cashbackearners - Cashback £180+
Sign up Bonus Get a £6.5 sign up bonus, think this works with or without the ref link, links are at the top of the post! To find these offers just search for casino on the site. All of these offers state that you only need to make a deposit, its best to play through the deposit 1x to ensure that the cashback is paid. LuckyMeSlots - Cashback £15 Add £15 and play 15 single £1 hands on blackjack following the strategy outlined at the top of the post, withdraw any remaining balance. Spin Genie - Cashback £12.5 Add £12.5 and play 12.5 £1 hands on blackjack following the strategy outlined at the top of the post, withdraw any remaining balance. Cashmo - Cashback £10 Add £10 and play through £10 on any slot staking the minimum amount per spin. Don't spin the wheel that pops up after signing up or accept any other bonuses. Ice36 -Cashback £15 Add £15 and play 15 £1 hands on blackjack following the strategy outlined at the top of the post, withdraw any remaining balance. Spinhill Casino - Cashback £15 Add £15 and play 15 £1 hands on blackjack following the strategy outlined at the top of the post, withdraw any remaining balance. Galacasino - Cashback £30 add £30 and play 30 £1 hands on blackjack following the strategy outlined at the top of the post, withdraw any remaining balance. Casino765 - Cashback £12.5 Add £12.5 and play 12.5 £1 hands on blackjack following the strategy outlined at the top of the post, withdraw any remaining balance. Casinosuperwins - Not recommended, bad site, awful support Casino2020 - Cashback £15 Add £15 and play through £15 on any slot staking the minimum amount per spin. Keep track of spins and quit the slot after wagering the required amount. Don't spin the wheel that pops up after signing up or accept any other bonuses. Pocketwin - Cashback £10 Add £10 and play through £10 on any slot staking the minimum amount per spin. Keep track of spins and quit the slot after wagering the required amount. Don't spin the wheel that pops up after signing up or accept any other bonuses. The Sun Vegas - Cashback £15 Add £15 and play 15 £1 hands on blackjack following the strategy outlined at the top of the post, withdraw any remaining balance. DrSlot - Cashback £10 Add £10 and play through £10 on any slot staking the minimum amount per spin. Keep track of spins and quit the slot after wagering the required amount. Don't spin the wheel that pops up after signing up or accept any other bonuses. MrSpin - Cashback £10 Add £10 and play through £10 on any slot staking the minimum amount per spin. Keep track of spins and quit the slot after wagering the required amount. Don't spin the wheel that pops up after signing up or accept any other bonuses. PrimeCasino - Cashback £15 Add £15 and play 15 £1 hands on blackjack following the strategy outlined at the top of the post, withdraw any remaining balance. ConquestAdor - Cashback £10 Add £10 play 10 £1 hands on blackjack following the strategy outlined at the top of the post, withdraw any remaining balance. MFortune - Cashback £10 Add £10 and play through £10 on any slot staking the minimum amount per spin. Keep track of spins and quit the slot after wagering the required amount. Don't spin the wheel that pops up after signing up or accept any other bonuses. Thanks for reading, hope this of use to some people, happy earning!
Best way to run a HU challenge vs a friend of mine?
Hello all, I wanted to do a heads up challenge versus my friend (online of course) and was wondering what would be the best way to go about this to avoid paying / pay minimal rake. We were thinking of playing on PokerStars in a homegame and only play 1c/2c blinds and then multiplying it to our desired stake on the side. We are gonna do 5k hands as a starting point for the challenge and will reassess the situation to see if we want to play more after that. We have set up an additional side bet as well as keeping the money won. Let me know if you have any suggestions! I’ve looked in Bluff Avenue before and the site is pretty shitty. Cheers!
Hello, ive been playing PokerStars play money for a while and I was wondering is there any good options for real money online poker for people in California? Also ive heard that BTC transfers are the best way to deposit/withdrawal but that you have to have a wallet in between where you play and where you get your BTC. So im wondering would “Coinbase>Electrum>whatever site for poker“ work? I apologize if these are stupid questions but I haven’t found a straight answer anywhere.
Up to £244.55 profit in cashback through gambling offers with TopCashback, Quidco and OhMyDosh
Up to £244.55 profit in cashback through gambling offers with TopCashback, Quidco and OhMyDosh TopCashback, Quidco and OhMyDosh always have a number of gambling offers available, with the offered amounts often changing daily or weekly. There are currently quite a few offers available on each where the cashback amount is more than the required deposit or wager amount. I've done most of these and always keep an eye out for when the amounts increase, to make sure I can get the most for my money. The offers they have on today are some of the best I've ever seen for each of them. The first step is to sign up for the cashback sites if you haven't already. If you use a referral link to sign up then you can get an extra bonus once your cashback becomes payable:
Then the next step is to work through the offers. These are all only available for new customers, so if you already have an account with one of the sites then you won't be eligible for the offer from them unfortunately. It's also worth checking the terms as some have specific wagering requirements, for example Betfair Poker must be completed within 3 days of opening your account and low risk roulette bets (covering 25 or more of the 37 outcomes) are excluded from counting towards the wager. Offers
Notes If you complete all these offers then you should make £232.55 cashback in profit through the offers alone. If you are new to the cashback sites and sign up through referral links then this will be £244.55 instead. There's also a chance you can make a profit on any or all the offers and walk away with even more. There's also a final few key points:
Make sure you have all adblockers and tracking protection switched off as otherwise this may lead to issues with the cashback tracking correctly.
I've listed the highest paying in terms of deposit/wager to cashback offers here, but if you have a preference for one cashback site over the other then they often offer very similar amounts if you'd rather go with the other instead.
Similarly, some sites (OhMyDosh in particular) offer a lower cashback amount but also a lower deposit/wager amount, which may be more appealing to some.
I don't like to say the cashback is guaranteed as all the cashback sites say it never is, but I've never had an issue with any of these sites, whether through gambling or other offers.
Please be aware that these all these offers all are gambling, so I'd highly recommend depositing and wagering only the mimimum amount required to get the cashback, then withdrawing any profit you may have made.
iNPoker - A Popular Card Game With Players From All Over the World
Namely, IDNPoker isn't a new poker service. In fact, it has been around for over a half-decade now: The Manila- based poker service launched in Indonesia in 1992 and was extremely popular from the beginning, according to IDNPlay's Daniel Alexis. It went through a lot of changes, expansion and mergers along the way. As the years passed, poker online in Indonesia saw the rise of many new players, some of whom were successful enough to open their own poker rooms. This has helped improve the quality of poker online in Indonesia as more players are attracted by the poker rooms that have more successful players. But what is it about IDNPoker that is so appealing to players who want to play poker online? One reason is that many of its members are successful poker players. Of course, this isn't the only factor that make them attractive clients, but it is surely one of the most important ones. Poker players know that if you want to succeed, you have to stick with good online poker games and this is certainly the case with IDNPoker. In addition to attracting a good number of successful players, many of the IDNPoker's features and offers appeal to a wider range of players, too. For example, many of its games feature bonus periods that last for several days. While they aren't exactly "free", they do offer a player a substantial advantage over players at the same skill level who don't have them. Some of the best bonus periods include the "aulo" bonus period, which last from mid-July till mid-September; the "peak season" from mid-November to early-March; and the "seasonal reset" from late-February until early-March. Other features include chat rooms, software, and support for the major networks, such as MSN, Yahoo, and Skype. Some users may also find the fact that the idNPoker allows their players to transfer money to each other online to be highly attractive. The poker rooms themselves use proprietary software to facilitate this feature. It allows the players to make transfers without divulging any information to the poker sites, which means no money, account information or pin numbers will be transmitted or obtained by these means. This feature is great for players who are worried about security when playing poker online. Of course, one of the attractions of pokerStars Asia, as well as all of the other IDNPoker sites, is that it has an interface that is very easy to use and does not require any knowledge of how online poker works. Even those players who have little or no experience of playing online poker can find the interface easy to navigate and understand. When using the site, you will need to register, either through a web form or a printable application. Once registered, you will be sent a download link to install on your computer, which you will need to confirm. You are now ready to play against other players. Another big attraction of playing at any of the poker network sites is the variety of bonuses offered to members. As you might expect, there are a number of different bonuses offered at all of the poker networks available to members of all skill levels, as well as promotions and special events for new players. In addition, players may participate in special tournaments and competitions to earn even more points and bonuses. There is a wealth of information available to players, which they can easily and quickly find out. One of the things that sets up iNPoker above other online gambling options is that it provides live dealer support. Players are able to communicate with the live dealer panel through chat programs, and there is a real-time video feed available from the dealer screen. The dealer's voice and gestures are very clear, which also adds to the excitement of playing online. Furthermore, all of the games on the website are executed as quickly and easily as possible. Because of these factors, many experienced players have switched over to playing iNPoker over other live dealer poker games available online. Another added benefit of playing poker at any of the popular poker rooms is the poker bonus features that are offered. There are a large number of different promotions offered each month. Poker players need only to sign up at a poker room site, and they will receive a code via email or in the mail to redeem the bonus points. iNPoker offers a high percentage of cash prizes when it comes to jackpots but also has some of the best promotions around for bonus points and free sign ups. In short, anyone interested in playing poker online should take a look at what iNPoker has to offer. Poker sites are offering iNPoker as one of their top games due to its ease of play and great bonuses. No matter where one is located in the world, there is a likely chance that there is an iNPoker cash game available for play at a poker site. In Asia, there is even more demand for this card game due to its popularity with Asian businessmen. The simple fact is that, poker is a very popular card game that has been played for centuries throughout all cultures around the world. Poker players from all walks of life enjoy playing this game, and now, poker is being played online at the most successful poker rooms in the world.
The Year is 2006. Online poker is thriving. Partypoker has the highest traffic of any poker site but Pokerstars are gaining new players quickly with aggressive marketing strategies. Lots of poker sites are investing heavily into marketing and one key place to channel their advertising budget is TV. New innovations, improved graphics and increasing funding meant that poker TV is at an all-time peak of popularity. 40% of the the 2006 WSOP Main Event’s attendance is from online sites and poker sites are offering large amounts of cash for players on TV to wear an advertising patch. According to Dan Goldman’s blog, Pokerstars spent over $730,000 on WSOP players’ gift bags. The WSOP is seeing more TV time and this year the $50k HORSE event is added to the TV schedule alongside the WSOP main event. This year’s $50k WSOP HORSE final table saw some huge names including Chip Reese, Phil Ivey, Patrik Antonius and Doyle Brunson.
The Path of a New Player
In Finland, Mikael Paisting is watching the 2006 WSOP on TV. He enjoys watching poker broadcasts and is fascinated by the game. It’s a very common story for players to catch an interest by watching poker TV and sign up with to one of the many poker sites available. He chooses to deposit on Partypoker. Mikael is a committed learner and player. He reads several poker books from well-known authors such as Dan Harrington and David Sklansky. He also watches many training videos. Like many players starting in online poker he begins at the microstakes cash tables. Microstakes are a rite of passage for many online poker players. The limits range from 2nl to 10nl, so the standard buy in is $2-10. Some will play microstakes for weeks, months or even years improving their game and increasing their bankroll so they can move up to small stakes, 25nl and above. Some players see the microstakes as a job and play as many tables as they can to eke out a living wage. Some players have never played microstakes and skip it entirely for higher stakes. Mikael starts to play and doesn’t do well, this is normal for many beginners, even those who study. However, over the next few weeks Mikael continues to lose. Months go by and Mikael still hasn’t turned a profit. He discovers problems with tilt and often takes his frustration out in the chat box. An example of his rage:
Paisting:THAT IS NOT NORMAL OMG!! JUST UNBELIEVABLE
Mikael doesn’t play 10nl very often and spends the majority of him time playing 2nl and 5nl. He continues to multitable cash games on Partypoker but he just can’t win. He starts to lose big, thousands of dollars, mostly at 2nl which is known as the softest cash game on the internet.
Getting Noticed
Mikael continues to play long sessions over the next five years, he claims to play 5-7 days a week for 4-8 hours a day. By 2011 he had played 2 and a half million hands while playing 6 to 9 cash tables at one time. Mikael is still mostly playing 2nl and is down a colossal amount: $7000. Mikael has been suffering from major tilt problems and has a very wild and noticeable style of playing microstakes. He starts to get noticed on 2+2, a very popular poker forum. A player posts a link to his PTR graph, a site which tracks online cash games. They are shocked at his losses over so many hands:
yegor: wow such a massive fail he played 2.5m hands at 2nl and 5nl and he's losing Donkey111: I remember him from my 2NL days. often goes on some massive tilt sessions and spews like 20 BI in 500 hands by shoving any 2 cards preflop.
He even gets hate from his PTR account where he is ridiculed on his profile comments, he also replies:
VELAir26: Spend your time with family, friends or other hobbies instead Paisting: im fine with this you stupid idiot
Mikael continues to play his reckless and tilting style over the years. By 2014, he has been playing for 8 years and is down five figures at microstakes; he starts to look for excuses for how much he has lost. He posts a thread on 2+2 detailing how he feels that he wins at the start of the month and then inevitably starts to lose. He asks how he can take legal action against Partypoker. His fellow posters tease him:
5thStreethog: Did the thought ever cross your mind that it might be possible that the reason you cant beat NL2 in over a million hands might be because you arent very good at poker?
An Attempt at Redemption
2019 comes and MikaelPaisting has been playing microstakes for 13 years, and steadily losing a lot of money. He got a new computer in late 2018 and has been grinding away on it. Mikael is getting mentioned more on 2+2 and he is well known on the tables of Partypoker as he drops stack after stack. Many players on Partypoker furiously try to get on his tables to call his tilt shoves; when Mikael is present other player’s stacks can get as high as $100 at 2nl as he shoves buy in after buy in to button steals. Some were said to be using seating scripts to instantly be placed on a table with Paisting. At this point he is feeling very low. But despite years of losing money and insane tilting he is determined to improve. Mikael is aware of his losses and has a fierce desire to make back the money he has lost since he’s started tracking on his new PC. He decides get help and he looks to 2+2, the very same forum that had mocked him over the last decade. He logs in as Paisting, his last name. He starts a new thread, types out a post and chooses a title: 'Biggest loser in online poker history wants to grind $16k'. He posts this thread in the sub-forum Poker Goals & Challenges, a place where players post their goals and try to update their thread with their progress. He posts graphs of his losses from his database on his PC. He starts the thread by posting some shocking graphs of $8700 lost at 2nl, $6000 lost at 5nl and $800 lost at 10nl. At 2nl he had an incredible rate of -170BB each 100 hands. The final graph of his microstakes losses posted show $15,000 lost over 365,000 hands. An average loss of $75 a day. The 2+2 poker community are stunned by the graphs:
HorseofHell: I'm actually shocked it's possible to lose this much at 2nl Mahsjdj: This can't be real can it?
Mikael posts about the hard work he’s put into poker and mentions that has watched videos, read many instructional books and is honest with his astounding losses:
Paisting: I've lost literally all my money including all my life savings to online poker. I want to try one last time to win those money back and little bit of extra. That's why $16k. What I need is support and guiding.
The community react to his plan to grind all the money back at microstakes:
Fodersneso: This is really disturbing. Why on earth would you try to grind this all back? Losing at this rate is traumatizing. You're going to grind out 3000 BIs @nl5 now or what's the plan? Really curious how you think you can turn this pile of insanity around...
The community show disbelief and doubt that his story is real but several posters claim that what he says is true. He has been active in Finnish forums for more than 10 years and players starts to share hand histories and stories about his playstyle. He posts about his regret of picking the game up:
Paisting: Never had a winning week in 13 years. If it were possible to go back ten years I would say to myself "Do not never play single one hand!"
He then goes on to tell 2+2 posters a disturbing source of his funds for his staggering 2nl losses:
Paisting: I've taken huge amount of fast loans.
He sheds a little light into his personal life:
Paisting: My age and relationships has nothing to do with this. But not working, no kids or wife and middle aged. What I have is time to play. I get a little unemployment benefit that goes straight to the rent. My eating costs are very little because I'm only eating one meal per day. There are times when I must take more fast loans if need of clothes, unexpected bills, sickness etc. That's why getting back those $16k is so important to me. No disability, never played anything else than poker or lottery when pots are bigger, maybe 5 times in year. Playing poker does not give me any excitement or I'm not cheering won pots.
Posters try to give him strategy advice, they try to persuade him time and time again that shoving 100+ blinds to a minsteal isn’t a good idea. Some others question his sanity and tell him to quit:
FazendeiroBH: Not trolling, I´m actually serious here. You lost an absurd amount of money playing the easiest stake in the world (nl2). You keep losing doing the same faulty strategy. No book ever said you should jam 100 bb preflop rfi. It´s quite obvious there is something wrong with you and your brain, and the more you delay seeking professional care for your mental problems, the worst it´s gonna be for you.
Paitsing updates his thread with highlight hands from his cash sessions. He seems to cherry pick hands to post and will only post hands where he loses all ins as a 70-95% favourite. He delusion leads him to blame the site, his luck and the other micro grinders. He often writes about specific players and gives his opinion on how badly they play. He often quotes their HUD stats and wide calling ranges while ignoring that they are probably adjusting heavily to his own playstyle. Some time passes and he discloses that he has lost almost $500 at 2nl since starting the thread three weeks ago. He updates his followers with the first monthly graph of the thread from his 2nl play in April 2019. He plays for 90 hours in April and his average daily loss is $50, 25 buy ins each day. 2+2 players start to analyse the graph. They notice that there are several breakeven spots where he may be playing reasonable poker but also huge 150 buy in downswings, some drops in the graph are so steep that he is losing about a buy in every 5 hands for periods of hundreds of hands. He says:
Paitsing: Only trying to get my money back from guys who are playing nl2 forever and never moving up. When I started poker long time ago I tought it's exciting to read watch videos if it gives me more money. After 2 years figured out it's just sitting on computer like in work and if I'm someday +-0 never ever playing this stupid game. This is like war.
The thread goes on like this for almost a year. The thread repeats itself over and over. He will post a few selective bad beats, ignore good advice and berate his microstakes tablemates. A fellow microstakes grinder makes his first appearance in the thread: 6betpot. 6Betpot would play at Paisting's tables and often win many buy ins, 6Betpot would go on to post highly contrasting hand histories to the bad beats that Paisting posts, he would also reveal Paisting’s preflop 3 bet is around 30%. Some players would criticize 6Betpot for predatory behavior but 6Betpot would maintain that he would try to persuade Paisting to stop playing in a spewy manner. Someone asks to see the hands and 6Betpot posts some, here is one:
888 Poker - $0.02 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players BTN: 250.5 BB SB (Paisting): 425.5 BB BB: 101.5 BB UTG: 100 BB MP: 106.5 BB CO: 84.5 BB Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) BTN has AdQs fold, fold, fold, BTN raises to 2 BB, Paisting raises to 425.5 BB and is all-in, fold, BTN calls 248.5 BB and is all-in Flop: (502 BB, 2 players) Kh4s4c Turn: (502 BB, 2 players) 3h River: (502 BB, 2 players) Jc BTN shows AdQs (One Pair, Fours)
Paisting wins 471 BB< Later in the thread Paisting would reveal his line of thinking during hands like these; a poster asked why he though 3 betting hands like J5 was a good idea. Paisting replies:
Paisting: If you don't want them to run over you, you must do something. Blind play is very important and you can't let them run over you. When 80+ habit stealer gets shoves straight to his face he must learn at some point that I'm not giving blinds.
Many tried to reason with him and show him clearly why this was wrong, he not only refuted their strategy but would argue against them, often citing his opponent’s HUD stats. Later on in the thread Mikael posts horrifying news. He explains that he didn’t transfer hands from his old computer to his new computer. The graphs he posted at the start of the thread only showed the tip of the iceberg. He reveals that $16k loss from the graphs was from just 7 months of play!:
Paisting: That 16k is in 209 days and in about 1 year as you can see from the first post. Big part of my losings has left to hard drive of my old crashed computer. That's past and I don't wanna think about it anymore. Main goal is this database I have here in my computer. But yes what I have been repeating many times, moving to 888 poker has sky rocketed my losses although I can play only 6 tables compared to party's 9 tables.
Posters speculate that his lifetime microstakes losses probably amount to six figures:
SpinMeRightRound: I mean if he's lost $20k in the last year, and he's been doing this for more than 10 years, he may have lost $200k or more.
In late 2019, Paisting claims that there was a ring of players were colluding against him. He goes on to say that the new site he plays on, 888, were asking for hand histories from certain players. He showed emails of his communications and posted that 8 players had had their account frozen. He also shows screenshots that his account is temporarily frozen during the investigation. Posters speculated:
CrunchyBlack: Pretty sure they think you're chip dumping lmao .isolated: They think you're chip dumping to him. Funniest. Thing. Ever. The irony here is nearly palpable.
2020: The Struggle Continues
At the end of the year Paisting posts his 2019 graphs. He says that he hasn’t had a winning week yet and he’s still committed to making back 2019’s losses. His graphs show down 12k from 320k hands of 2nl in 2019. In January 2020 he continues to post regularly and makes comments about him hunting down players worse than him:
Paisting: When you hunt really bad player (yes enzet there are plenty of worst player than me on 888 look those hand histories really carefully) hours and hours and wait good hand just to site let them to suck out it is affecting your game really badly.
He posts about his continuing struggle to win back the $16k:
Paisting: I have years dedicated for this project and anything back from that amount is winning to me. At this point it’s impossible to make any profit because of horrible suckouts.
He also posts about the high interest loans he’s taken out:
Paisting: I have huge amounts of loans that are basically all taken for poker. I don't eat much and all my other costs are very low. And because of those loans I must get back so much money that is possible and these suck outs must stop.
February 2020 arrives and he posts his January chart, the worst posted yet. He takes a gigantic loss of $1,550 at an eye-watering rate of 210bb/100 hands. Often when he posts monthly graphs he would highlight that he ran a few buy ins below EV when he would be down hundreds of buy ins for the month. The months pass and the cycle continues. Paisting posts the usual bad beats, posters berate him and try to give him advice and Paisting resists their efforts. Here is one of many similar hands posted in February:
March comes and the regular monthly graph is posted. The uploaded graph shows is he down $1900 or 950 buy ins for last month. Mikael refutes that he is a gambling addict:
Paisting: 888 has given many 10 dollar bonuses to me play slots. I have never played them and in fact my account has 20 dollars freeplay bonus to play their slots. I will not use those money now or in future. So that's gambling addict to you.
April and May roll by and the monthly graphs are posted. He played fewer hands than normal, 43,000. But is down $1,250, all at 2nl. In June he posts the usual monthly graph with -$1900 and it’s the lowest win rate he’s posted before, a colossal -335b/100hands, the graph has some alarmingly steep downswings with one section where he loses $500 in 1000 hands. That’s a loss of one buy in every 4 hands. Getting these monthly updates shows how quickly he loses money at 2nl and collaborates with earlier estimations that he is likely down more than $100k at microstakes over the past 14 years. Approximations indicate that Mikael has paid over $20k in rake to poker sites over the years.
The End, for Now
Mikael is still playing microstakes to this day. His poker story isn’t over yet but so far it is a sad one. My previous two Tales from 2+2 stories had mostly happy endings but not this one. This story is like a car falling down a cliff and it hasn’t hit the bottom yet. Let this story be a lesson that poker isn’t for everyone. Players with addiction or mental issues should reconsider if the game is best for their lives. Serious poker players should consider bankroll management and how tilt affects their winrate if they do choose to play. Seek help if you think you or others need it. Original thread (Still active)
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The Year is 2006. Online poker is thriving. Partypoker has the highest traffic of any poker site but Pokerstars are gaining new players quickly with aggressive marketing strategies. Lots of poker sites are investing heavily into marketing and one key place to channel their advertising budget is TV. New innovations, improved graphics and increasing funding meant that poker TV is at an all-time peak of popularity. The World Series of Poker (WSOP) is the biggest event in the poker calendar, it features many poker tournaments culminating in the prestigious $10k Main Event tournament. The Main Event is a popular televised tournament. 40% of the the 2006 WSOP Main Event’s attendance is from online sites and poker sites are offering large amounts of cash for players on TV to wear an advertising patch. According to Dan Goldman’s blog, Pokerstars spent over $730,000 on WSOP players’ gift bags. The WSOP is seeing more TV time and this year an extra event is added to the TV schedule alongside the WSOP main event.
The Path of a New Player
In Finland, Mikael Paisting is watching the 2006 WSOP on TV. He enjoys watching poker broadcasts and is fascinated by the game. It’s a very common story for players to catch an interest by watching poker TV and sign up with to one of the many poker sites available. He chooses to deposit on Partypoker. Mikael is a committed learner and player. He reads several poker books from well-known authors. He also watches many training videos. Like many players starting in online poker he begins at the microstakes cash tables. The standard buy in for microstakes online is $2-10, if a player plays microstakes for an hour they would probably win or lose a few dollars. 2nl means the big blind is 2 cents and standard buy in is $2, the standard buy in at 5nl is $5 and 10nl is $10. Microstakes are a rite of passage for many online poker players. Some will play microstakes for weeks, months or even years improving their game and increasing their bankroll so they can move up to small stakes, 25nl and above. Some players see the microstakes as a job and play as many tables as they can to eke out a living wage. Some players have never played microstakes and skip it entirely for higher stakes. Mikael starts to play and doesn’t do well, this is normal for many beginners, even those who study. However, over the next few weeks Mikael continues to lose. Months go by and Mikael still hasn’t turned a profit. He discovers problems with tilt (when players get angry and it negatively affects their play) and often takes his frustration out in the chat box. An example of his rage:
Paisting:THAT IS NOT NORMAL OMG!! JUST UNBELIEVABLE
Mikael doesn’t play 10nl very often and spends the majority of him time playing 2nl and 5nl, buying in for $2-5 at a time. He continues to multitable cash games on Partypoker but he just can’t win. He starts to lose big, thousands of dollars, mostly at 2nl which is known as the softest cash game on the internet.
Getting Noticed
Mikael continues to play long sessions over the next five years, he claims to play 5-7 days a week for 4-8 hours a day. By 2011 he had played 2 and a half million hands while playing 6 to 9 cash tables at one time. Mikael is still mostly playing 2nl and is down a colossal amount: $7000. Remember that he is mostly playing 2nl, with a buy in of $2, even losing $1000 at 2nl is unheard of. Mikael has been suffering from major tilt problems and has a very wild and noticeable style of playing microstakes. He starts to get noticed on 2+2, a very popular poker forum. A player posts a link to his PTR graph, a site which tracks online cash games. They are shocked at his losses over so many hands:
yegor: wow such a massive fail he played 2.5m hands at 2nl and 5nl and he's losing Donkey111: I remember him from my 2NL days. often goes on some massive tilt sessions and spews like 20 BI [buy ins] in 500 hands by shoving any 2 cards preflop.
He even gets hate from his PTR account where he is ridiculed on his profile comments, he also replies:
VELAir26: Spend your time with family, friends or other hobbies instead Paisting: im fine with this you stupid idiot
Mikael continues to play his reckless and tilting style over the years. By 2014, he has been playing for 8 years and is down five figures at microstakes; he starts to look for excuses for how much he has lost. He posts a thread on 2+2 detailing how he feels that he wins at the start of the month and then inevitably starts to lose. He asks how he can take legal action against Partypoker. His fellow posters tease him:
5thStreethog: Did the thought ever cross your mind that it might be possible that the reason you cant beat NL2 in over a million hands might be because you arent very good at poker?
An Attempt at Redemption
2019 comes and MikaelPaisting has been playing microstakes for 13 years, and steadily losing a lot of money. He got a new computer in late 2018 and has been grinding away on it. Mikael is getting mentioned more on 2+2 and he is well known on the tables of Partypoker as he drops stack after stack. Many players on Partypoker furiously try to get on his tables to call his tilt shoves; when Mikael is present other player’s stacks can get as high as $100 at 2nl as he shoves buy in after buy in in bad spots. Some were said to be using seating scripts to instantly be placed on a table with Paisting. At this point he is feeling very low. But despite years of losing money and insane tilting he is determined to improve. Mikael is aware of his losses and has a fierce desire to make back the money he has lost since he’s started tracking on his new PC. He decides get help and he looks to 2+2, the very same forum that had mocked him over the last decade. He logs in as Paisting, his last name. He starts a new thread, types out a post and chooses a title: 'Biggest loser in online poker history wants to grind $16k'. He posts this thread in the sub-forum Poker Goals & Challenges, a place where players post their goals and try to update their thread with their progress. He posts graphs of his losses from his database on his PC. He starts the thread by posting some shocking graphs of $8700 lost at 2nl, $6000 lost at 5nl and $800 lost at 10nl. At 2nl he had an incredible rate of losing an average of $75 a day. The final graph of his microstakes losses posted show $15,000 lost over 365,000 hands. The 2+2 poker community are stunned by the graphs:
HorseofHell: I'm actually shocked it's possible to lose this much at 2nl Mahsjdj: This can't be real can it?
Mikael posts about the hard work he’s put into poker and mentions that has watched videos, read many instructional books and is honest with his astounding losses:
Paisting: I've lost literally all my money including all my life savings to online poker. I want to try one last time to win those money back and little bit of extra. That's why $16k. What I need is support and guiding.
The community react to his plan to grind all the money back at microstakes:
Fodersneso: This is really disturbing. Why on earth would you try to grind this all back? Losing at this rate is traumatizing. You're going to grind out 3000 BIs [buy ins] @nl5 now or what's the plan? Really curious how you think you can turn this pile of insanity around...
The community show disbelief and doubt that his story is real but several posters claim that what he says is true. He has been active in Finnish forums for more than 10 years and players starts to share hand histories and stories about his playstyle. He posts about his regret of picking the game up:
Paisting: Never had a winning week in 13 years. If it were possible to go back ten years I would say to myself "Do not never play single one hand!"
He then goes on to tell 2+2 posters a disturbing source of his funds for his staggering 2nl losses:
Paisting: I've taken huge amount of fast loans.
He sheds a little light into his personal life:
Paisting: My age and relationships has nothing to do with this. But not working, no kids or wife and middle aged. What I have is time to play. I get a little unemployment benefit that goes straight to the rent. My eating costs are very little because I'm only eating one meal per day. There are times when I must take more fast loans if need of clothes, unexpected bills, sickness etc. That's why getting back those $16k is so important to me. No disability, never played anything else than poker or lottery when pots are bigger, maybe 5 times in year. Playing poker does not give me any excitement or I'm not cheering won pots.
Posters try to give him strategy advice, they try to persuade him time and time again that his strategy isn't working. Some others question his sanity and tell him to quit:
FazendeiroBH: Not trolling, I´m actually serious here. You lost an absurd amount of money playing the easiest stake in the world (nl2). You keep losing doing the same faulty strategy. It´s quite obvious there is something wrong with you and your brain, and the more you delay seeking professional care for your mental problems, the worst it´s gonna be for you.
Paitsing updates his thread with highlight hands from his cash sessions. He seems to cherry pick hands to post and will only post hands where he loses all ins as a 70-95% favourite. He delusion leads him to blame the site, his luck and the other micro grinders. He often writes about specific players and gives his opinion on how badly they play. Some time passes and he discloses that he has lost almost $500 at 2nl since starting the thread three weeks ago. He updates his followers with the first monthly graph of the thread from his 2nl play in April 2019. He plays for 90 hours in April and his average daily loss is $50, 25 buyins each day. 2+2 players start to analyse the graph. They notice that there are several breakeven spots where he may be playing reasonable poker but also huge 150 buy in downswings, some drops in the graph are so steep that he is losing about a buy in every 5 hands for periods of hundreds of hands. He says:
Paitsing: Only trying to get my money back from guys who are playing nl2 forever and never moving up. When I started poker long time ago I tought it's exciting to read watch videos if it gives me more money. After 2 years figured out it's just sitting on computer like in work and if I'm someday +-0 never ever playing this stupid game. This is like war.
The thread goes on like this for almost a year. The thread repeats itself over and over. He will post a few selective bad beats, ignore good advice and berate his microstakes tablemates. A fellow microstakes grinder makes his first appearance in the thread: 6betpot. 6Betpot would play at Paisting's tables and often win many buy ins, 6Betpot would go on to post highly contrasting hand histories to the unlucky hands that Paisting posts which shows the hands Mikael was not posting. Some players would criticize 6Betpot for predatory behavior but 6Betpot would maintain that he would try to persuade Paisting to stop playing in a crazy manner. Many tried to reason with Mikael and show him clearly why this was wrong, he not only refuted their strategy but would argue against them. Later on in the thread Mikael posts horrifying news. He explains that he didn’t transfer hands from his old computer to his new computer. The graphs he posted at the start of the thread only showed the tip of the iceberg. He reveals that $16k loss from the graphs was from just 7 months of play!:
Paisting: That 16k is in 209 days and in about 1 year as you can see from the first post. Big part of my losings has left to hard drive of my old crashed computer. That's past and I don't wanna think about it anymore. Main goal is this database I have here in my computer. But yes what I have been repeating many times, moving to 888 poker has sky rocketed my losses although I can play only 6 tables compared to party's 9 tables.
Posters speculate that his lifetime microstakes losses probably amount to six figures:
SpinMeRightRound: I mean if he's lost $20k in the last year, and he's been doing this for more than 10 years, he may have lost $200k or more.
2020: The Struggle Continues
At the end of the year Paisting posts his 2019 graphs. He says that he hasn’t had a winning week yet and he’s still committed to making back 2019’s losses. His graphs show down 12k from 320k hands of 2nl in 2019. In January 2020 he continues to post regularly and makes comments about him hunting down players worse than him:
Paisting: When you hunt really bad player (yes enzet there are plenty of worst player than me on 888 look those hand histories really carefully) hours and hours and wait good hand just to site let them to suck out it is affecting your game really badly.
He posts about his continuing struggle to win back the $16k:
Paisting: I have years dedicated for this project and anything back from that amount is winning to me. At this point it’s impossible to make any profit because of horrible suckouts.
He also posts about the high interest loans he’s taken out:
Paisting: I have huge amounts of loans that are basically all taken for poker. I don't eat much and all my other costs are very low. And because of those loans I must get back so much money that is possible and these suck outs must stop.
February 2020 arrives and he posts his January chart, the worst posted yet. He takes a gigantic loss of $1,550 at an eye-watering rate. The months pass and the cycle continues. Paisting posts the usual unlucky hands, posters berate him and try to give him advice and Paisting resists their efforts. Here is one of many similar hands posted in February, this hand shows him making an awful play and raising huge with a weak hand:
March comes and the regular monthly graph is posted. The uploaded graph shows is he down $1900 or 950 buy ins for last month. Mikael refutes that he is a gambling addict:
Paisting: 888 has given many 10 dollar bonuses to me play slots. I have never played them and in fact my account has 20 dollars freeplay bonus to play their slots. I will not use those money now or in future. So that's gambling addict to you.
April and May roll by and the monthly graphs are posted. He played fewer hands than normal, 43,000. But is down $1,250, all at 2nl. In June he posts the usual monthly graph with -$1900 and it’s the lowest win rate he’s posted before, the graph has some alarmingly steep downswings with one section where he loses $500 in 1000 hands. That’s a loss of one buy in every 4 hands. Getting these monthly updates shows how quickly he loses money at 2nl and collaborates with earlier estimations that he is likely down more than $100k at microstakes over the past 14 years.
The End, for Now
Mikael is still playing microstakes to this day. His poker story isn’t over yet but so far it is a sad one. My previous two Tales from 2+2 stories had mostly happy endings but not this one. This story is like a car falling down a cliff and it hasn’t hit the bottom yet. Let this story be a lesson that poker isn’t for everyone. Players with addiction or mental issues should reconsider if the game is best for their lives. Serious poker players should consider bankroll management and how tilt affects their winrate if they do choose to play. Seek help if you think you or others need it. Original thread (Still active)
Warning to aspiring Poker players. Truths from an ex-pro. Also about online poker rigged
Other than full time professionals, bots, colluders, etc, people estimate only 0.5% of people profit long term from Poker Online in 2020. At the end of the day it is Gambling. Never forget that. Here's the story of my friend who is an amazing guy, hardest working guy I know, and how he got treated with Poker. My friend lost $10,000 playing online poker, despite going to college on a full ride for advanced math that I'm not even capable of understanding. At first I was skeptical, and then he sent me his 150,000 hand history. My friend had a 24% win rate with pocket Kings in showdowns, 22% overall. He also had less than a 50% win rate with Queens and Aces. I sat down with him for a few of his sessions, since I was the one who got him into poker. I sat by, feeling super guilty, as he got coolered and river rivered roughly 70-80% of the time, when the chance of this stuff happening is about 4-20%. So if you're a losing player online, and you've come to these forums and hear the 'success stories' lots of these shills or braggers say... just realize it's not the entire truth. The truth about variance is... the same way a Royal Flush is a 1 in 650,000 chance, you can simply be a losing player for 650,000 hands, no matter how you play. Variance has no guarantees. Something Poker players don't like to let the new community realize is, Poker is just gambling with a side of bluffing. At the end of the hand, you either have the cards, or you don't. You will eventually get called no matter how clever you are. Phil Ivey lost $10+ million playing basic rooms online. Daniel Negreanu and Doug Polk are both losing players online, even at microstakes. Now, if you search Online Poker Rigged on google, you'll get about 650,000 (royal flush odds, ironic!) pages and testimonials of people saying online poker is rigged. Then you'll get the waves of people coming at them, calling them stupid donkeys, etc. My friend is one of the most disciplined and smart people I have ever known. He went to college on a full ride, apparently makes 6 figures right out of graduation. Got his house at 24 years old. We were best friends in high school, so I was having a lot of fun with poker and decided to get him into it. I actually told him, because of how guilty I feel about his online poker experience, that I'm going to personally pay off the $10,000 he lost online. During the two sessions I sat down with him, things were happening that just cannot be explained. I'm talking runner runners in 80% of his hands during a 6+ hour session. If you are new to poker, or think you are getting close to that skill level to being a professional, just know it won't last. Phil Ivey, considered NUMBER ONE in the world at one point, was 'losing' online to no-name regulars at mid-stakes. He no longer plays online. Moral of the story. The same way people win the lottery, or run good... someone can run the opposite. There's the exact same chance of running bad continously, in fact it's higher because you are at a table with 2-9 other people. Doyal Brunson won the world series of Poker 2x in a row donking out using trash hands like 10-2 offsuit. Someone said that Doyal didn't even know the math for open ended straight odds when he won. Can you imagine that? Losing to someone who doesn't even know gradeschool math because he donked out with 10-2, a hand that is "negative equity". Don't get fooled by incels, shills, coaches, who gaslight you and try to make you feel bad. Eric, if you're reading this, I'm sorry I got you into online poker. Glad you quit when you did. I will pay off the $10,000 you lost with pride. Go watch the world finals of Poker in 2018, and 2019. A guy with a neckbeard punts 33 into JJ and runner runners a straight. Same neckbeard guy appears in the final table, where he flops a full house and then Quads to 'win' the tournament. If you do choose to try to play Poker for a living, your best bet is to play LIVE poker. People are worse and the deck is not rigged. Do yourself a favor and google 'online poker rigged'. 650,000 results. And before some incel shill gets mad. Black Friday, Pokerbros, skillbet.com, Pokerstars. All caught literally cheating and rigging the game. Online poker is not your friend, they have a very carefully designed system that identifies users based on their hand playing behavior to get the most $$$ out of them. There is also a handicap implementation on many Poker sites, which will deliver coolers to skilled NITS and high level GTO players, making sure that Donkeys and fish are able to win some hands they should've folded - so all parties keep depositing. This has been proven. Google 'russian bot rings'. Essentially, either run by the poker sites or by Russian programmers, the russians all have the same statistics. The reason these bots are sourced in Russia is the laws there make it impossible to prosecute them. Many people also believe the Poker sites simply have a deal with them. These bots keep rooms full. Another fact to keep in mind is, right now, take the time to go to Global Poker, a site that is supposedly one of the biggest poker sites in the world. Something they don't tell you, is not only is their Poker 'sweepstakes' aka not legally poker, but if you start clicking on their rooms, you'll see the exact same names over and over. You'd think a site with a million users would have more random people playing vs you at micros or midstakes... but it's always the same 20 people. That is because many of these people are bots, and you are selected with a small group of other people to always play vs these bots. They are called 'house bots'. Many poker sites have been caught using them. Not only will the bots beat you, they are not very profitable even if you have the edge. Don't believe me? Go check out Global. Biggest site in the world, same 6 ppl at every stakes, 20 hours a day. Again, regardless of all these facts regarding online poker, Variance is variance. There is no guarantee you will ever get lucky at all. My friend played 150,000 hands and had less than a 30% win rate with Aces. What do you tell that person? Oh, just play 2 more years straight and if it doesn't get better... that just means you're bad. One quote stuck with me from my friend. "My variance in online poker is so bad that I actually feel lucky to win with Aces, and when I do, I feel like I even sucked out on them". What a joke, right? Again, Eric. I'm sorry I got you into Online Poker. I learned so many things about how corrupt it is between last year and now. It all makes so much sense now.
Hi. I’ve been watching tutorials and trying to learn more about poker as something to do during the covid restrictions. Is PokerStars the best site to play? Would you recommend any others? What about web vs app?
Why I left Natural8 (Asia's GG Poker) after 4 days.
I am a recreational but devoted poker player, I recently moved my bankroll to Natural 8 (GG Poker Network) as I am temporarily boycotting Pokerstars until they put their shit together. I left after 4 days, this is why:
Cannot track overall wins or losses of Cash games or BB/100 on their Pokercraft (a provided alternative for HUD and tracking software): Hello, apologies but unfortunately there is no option at the moment for this.So they don't want players to know exactly how they are winning or losing. You can only see this on a session by session basis, which would be a bit of a hassle in the long run.
Software sucks. Really hard to move or resize tables. And you cannot tile 4 tables on most screens, you can only tile two, and the 3rd and 4th table just hide behind. Also, tables don't pop up when it's your turn to act. Their solution provided is to change your resolution when you open their software. But why should I bother to change my resolution to play your software?
They said they have a 200% deposit bonus on their website, which is the only reason I joined: Hello, the 200% first deposit bonus actually expired a few months ago. We do have a new type of first deposit bonus for our new players. (the Honeymoon missions and 1$ ticket freerolls, which I will talk on my next point).
The Honeymoon promotion for first depositors is literally a scam. Like on a Steam game, you are supposed to make one achievement per day and you get $150 after 30 days. They start with simple missions like "Play 50 hands of PLO". On the 4th day, I asked their customer support to send me a list of the missions in order to make sure if I want to invest any more time on them (you have to play them daily): Hello, I'm afraid we do not provide the list of the honeymoon missions.So they don't want to tell you some of the missions are actually "Win 1st place on the Daily Hyper", or "Win the Jackpot on All in or Fold games", otherwise you would know you are not going to get the 150$ dollars and would not waste your time on it. So, they lure you with a 200% deposit bonus... then have you gambling with your bankroll doing "easy missions" (like "Play 70 All in or Fold hands", not knowing you won't get the final prize.
Cannot remove casino games from lobby or table. Also, you cannot self exclude yourself from a certain game, which is a feature some players appreciate: Hello, I'm afraid we do not have the feature for players to exclude them from a certain game.So part of their business goal is to get tilting or bored players getting into gambling games. Put that together with not providing you an option of tracking overall wins and losses.
To protect it's business with CCP companies (Alipay, Wechat, Chinese banks), GG Network does not allow Taiwan players to use their national flag. We were forced to use Chinese communist flag until last week, and after complains, they now force us to use the "Chinese Taipei" flag. I know people from other countries might not care as long as they can get some Chinese money "today", but any company that supports CCP expansionist politics should not be trusted. I was one of the players that complained by email. Their reply basically called me stupid on my face: "Our team has decided that this is the best approach for security purposes", and "as a company we have the wellbeing of all our players as our priority". So I cannot use my own flag for the wellbeing of the other players? I have to pretend I live in a different country for security purposes? Are you implying Chinese players are dangerous for Taiwan players? No other site does this.
So there you have it, Natural8 is basically a Chinese casino with a few poker tournaments, shady promotions and shady practices.
More Tales From 2+2: A Very Controversial $70k prop bet
I enjoyed writing up and seeing positive feedback from this post so I decided to write up about an interesting prop bet that came from the 2+2 poker forums that I feel went under the radar. It's way longer than I thought it would be but this story has it all: large amounts of money being bet, furious grinding, 25 buy in swings, community outrage and Doug Polk.
The Site
The modern cash game grinder may be surprised to hear that there used to be a Sharkscope style tracking website for online cash games, it was called PokerTableRatings or PTR. It tracked hands fairly accurately. Today, it doesn’t exist and has been shut down for years but it was a valuable resource for grinders and having one browser open to check out opponents was useful. PTR showed your graph and win rates at different stakes, it also had an achievement system. Some achievements were serious like ‘1 Million Dollars In Profit’ and some were less serious like ‘Check Raise 3 Times In A Hand’. One coveted achievement given by PTR was the ‘Ultimate Grinder’. This was given to the most profitable player each month at each stake, this was all tracked on the Ultimate Grinder Leaderboard. So for example: if you are the top of the leaderboard for 50NL in December 2008, you will receive the ‘Ultimate Grinder December 50nl 2008’ badge on your PTR profile.
The Bets
The year is 2010. Johnathon Duhamel has won the WSOP Main Event. Poker, especially online poker is still booming. The grinders are plentiful. The fish are more plentiful. Posts flow on 2+2 like wine. Enter Silent_0ne. He puts out a proposition bet on BBV (Beats, Brags and Variance: a subforum of 2+2 which is the precursor to Poker’s weekly BBV thread). Back in the golden days of online poker and 2+2 it was common for large prop bets to be made on BBV. Silent_0ne’s prop bet is he will be the ultimate grinder for December 2010 at 100nl. No easy feat, the previous months' ultimate grinders had won between $12k-18k and Silent_0ne claimed to have never played more than 10 tables or ever played on Pokerstars. The odds were set at 6:1 odds in Silent’s_0ne’s favour. Jalexand42 was selected to be the escrow and judge of this prop bet, so he will be the middleman for the money and he will arbitrate any disputes. The rules were set down covered many different situations. The judge was confident of this:
Jalexand42: Just a quick note about the judging... I'm optimistic there won't be any controversy in this bet the way the rules have been defined. (#83)
He would turn out to be so wrong. Many 2+2 posters weighed their opinions in and started to place bets:
Chicago Joey (Joey Ingram): damn that is going to be interesting for a bunch of reasons(#46) Canoodles: If I was OP, I wouldn't take this for less than 100-1. (#18) Chinz: Settling for 6-1 and doing it on December when lots of SNE chasers are playing really high volume... You don't seem to like money. (#218)
Nearly all the posters doubted Silent_0ne but he seemed confident and Jalexand42 started collecting money. By the 28th November, with 3 days to go until the challenge begins the bets were placed and finalized, 14 people put up between $600-$3k. Silent_0ne stood to gain $67,500 or lose $11,250 from the bet alone. In just a few days he would put himself at the mercy of variance and would dedicate himself to destroying 100nl. If he overcomes this challenging month, he stood to win a significant amount of money.
The Play
December the first rolled in and Silent_0ne starting playing. It was a rocky start for him, he finished day two down more than $2k and received comments from 2+2 posters like:
ChicagoJoey [Joey Ingram]: lol trainwreck (#392) MinSixBet: are you still taking action? (#399)
But some posters really believed in him and were rooting hard:
Eaglesfan1: Forget about the leaderboard and focus on your game and playing ur best. (#406)
However things got worse and Silent_one seemed to be losing hope, on day 4 he posted this:
Silent_0ne: just got owned bad rly bad "hero call" for big pot set of 8s < set of As KK < AK bad river bluff shove set of 6s < str 10s < Js AK < AA AK on AK6 board < 66 AA < 99 on 974 board ^ all greater than 200 big blind pots could have prevented half of those if I didnt suck so much (#410)
Day 5 and Silent_0ne was doing better but was down a few buy ins, still far behind his target. Remember, he needs to be number one in profit in the massive 2010 pool of 100nl Pokerstars players. He posted this astonishing hand: Poker Stars $0.50/$1 No Limit Hold'em $0.20 Ante - 9 players
Silent_0ne: $568.55 UTG+1: $444.30 UTG+2: $519.10 MP1: $226.75 Hero (MP2): $257.70 CO: $250.00 BTN: $100.00 SB: $257.70 BB: $120.90 Pre Flop: ($3.30) Silent_0ne is MP2 with 9h9c Silent_0ne raises to $4.80, UTG+1 raises to $18.60, 1 fold, MP1 calls $18.60, 5 folds, Silent_0ne calls $13.80 Flop: ($59.10) 2h8s5s(3 players) Silent_0ne checks, UTG+1 bets $32, MP1 folds, Silent_0ne raises to $92, UTG+1 calls $60 Turn: ($243.10) Kc (2 players) Silent_0ne checks, UTG+1 checks River: ($243.10) 4s (2 players) Silent_0ne bets $127, UTG+1 raises to $333.50 all in, Silent_0ne calls $206.50 Final Pot: $910.10 Silent_0ne shows 9h9c (a pair of Nines) UTG+1 shows 9dJc (high card King) Silent_0ne wins $907.10
As you can see, 2010 was truly an amazing place for online poker. Silent_0ne was bringing out his inner grinder and was playing 16 hour sessions and seeing huge swings in the first week. Day 7 and he posted some hands that shocked the community and his growing fan base:
DPred123: wtf at those HHs. (#520) Transa: LoLolLololooLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL (#521)
Here are two of the hands he posted:
Poker Stars $0.50/$1 No Limit Hold'em $0.20 Ante - 9 players Pre Flop: ($3.30) MP1: $365.20 Hero (CO): $342.35 Silent_0ne is CO with 7s7d 3 folds, MP1 raises to $4, 1 fold, Silent_0ne raises to $15.50, 3 folds, MP1 raises to $41.90, Silent_0ne raises to $342.15 all in, MP1 calls $300.25 Flop: ($687.60) ThKc6s(2 players - 1 is all in) Turn: ($687.60) Ts (2 players - 1 is all in) River: ($687.60) 2h (2 players - 1 is all in) Final Pot: $687.60 MP1 shows AcAh (two pair, Aces and Tens)
and:
Poker Stars $0.50/$1 No Limit Hold'em $0.20 Ante - 3 players BTN: $656.85 Silent_0ne(SB): $288.00 BB: $345.00 Pre Flop: ($2.10) Silent_0ne is SB with 4d4h BTN raises to $3, Silent_0ne raises to $12, 1 fold, BTN calls $9 Flop: ($25.60) 3h6d5s(2 players) Silent_0ne checks, BTN bets $18, Silent_0ne raises to $275.80 all in, BTN calls $257.80 Turn: ($577.20) Js (2 players - 1 is all in) River: ($577.20) 9c (2 players - 1 is all in) Final Pot: $577.20 BTN shows 3d5d (two pair, Fives and Threes) Hero Silent_0ne4h4h (a pair of Fours) BTN wins $576.20
Silent_0ne explained:
Silent_0ne: barely ate anything last few days. i just get up and play, dont prepare anything. im playing right now btw. down around 2700$ for the month. im really dumb for spewing off 3k+ just cause i was tilted/ran bad, and snapped. another problem that people overlook is the extra attention i get at the tables for doing this prop bet. lots of regs can exploit my plays and then all tend to focus on owning me. (#554)
Silent_0ne had started the month on a $3k downswing, then won $2.5k before going on another $3k downswing in just one week. He must have felt desperate as after an hour and a half Silent_0ne had an idea and events took a shocking turn:
Silent_0ne: any interested if i give up 100nl and start tomorrow on day 7 at 50nl to try and get the badge there for 6 to 1. i wanna gamble and break even on the month, so im willing to put up 5k on this if any1 is interested? (#570)
This new bet must have seemed too good to be true. At this point he had been relentlessly grinding 100nl for a week, was losing badly, he was tilting, was likely playing more tables than he can handle and he’s a week behind getting to the top of the 50nl leaderboard. The bets started to pour in and within an hour he had 7 people place action. The community commented:
Absurd: This is adsurd (#601) jalexand42: Seriously, take a day to cool off. (#599) King Fish: I'd be interested but highly advise you to reconsider this and maybe take an hour and step back. Edit: will take $1800 to your $300 assuming same judge and escrow. (#574) loK2thabrain: I call dibs on first bet when he moves down to win the 25nl badge. (#700)
Everyone on the thread couldn’t believe what they reading, However, Silent_0ne seemed to accept that the 100nl bet was dead and he wasn’t getting the $67k prop bet win. He was willing to pay the $11k out and enter a new prop bet. Now, being the Ultimate Grinder at 50nl is his goal. Again, the bets were substantial and he had 8:1 odds in his favour for being the Ultimate Grinder for December at 50nl. The same day he made the new bet, he started at 50nl and was off.
The New Bet
Enter Fees. Fees is the 2+2 username of Ryan Fee (Currently on Team Upswing), at this point he was known for being a fearsome 2000nl grinder and writing Ryan Fee’s 6 max guide, which he distributed for free. In a world where succinct and good poker strategy was hard to come by, this was a valuable guide for many players. He takes interest in the thread on the 7th of December:
Fees i'll take all the action, PM me (#746)
Fees booked action late and the details of this booking were not listed in the thread. The next day, Fees acts a question about the rules:
Fees: what if kerpowski or jeffmet wins the ugl and he gets second? (#878)
Kerpowski and Jeffmet are players who took action against Silent_0ne. They are also 50/100nl grinders. The case of fellow grinders taking action was covered in the rules. A poster quotes the rules and informs Fees that they have to be existing 50nl/100nl grinders. Fees then asks the following question:
Fees: i think that implies at the same tables as him, but what if they just play completely different games and just win the ugl?
Remember these probing questions, they’ll become relevant later. By the 10th of December things looked tough for Silent_0ne, the player of the top of the 50nl leaderboard was already at $2.5k profit (50 buy ins). Silent_0ne was up $1.1k and estimated he was only 2-3 days behind pace. By the 12th of December he was still playing brutally long sessions:
Silent_0ne: just finished 11 hour session, too tired to post anything, ill go to bed for a couple hours then post graphs/hands when i wake up. was tilted throughout entire session, played 12k hands...eyes burn...ran bad for once (6 buyins below ev)
He also posted eight hands that looked pretty spewy, here is one of them:
Poker Stars $0.25/$0.50 No Limit Hold'em $0.10 Ante - 5 players BB: $50.00 UTG: $103.40 CO: $137.65 BTN: $133.00 Silent_0ne (SB): $144.60 Pre Flop: ($1.25) Hero is SB with AdQh 1 fold, CO raises to $1.50, BTN calls $1.50, Silent_0ne calls $1.25, BB calls $1 Flop: ($6.50) 6c6d6s(4 players) Silent_0ne checks, BB checks, CO bets $4, BTN folds, Silent_0ne raises to $14.75, BB folds, CO calls $10.75 Turn: ($36.00) 8h (2 players) Silent_0ne bets $25.75, CO calls $25.75 River: ($87.50) 4d (2 players) Silent_0ne bets $102.50 all in, CO calls $95.55 all in Final Pot: $278.60 CO shows JdJc (a full house, Sixes full of Jacks) Silent_0ne shows AdQh (three of a kind, Sixes) CO wins $276.60
Even people taking action against him gave him advice:
King Fish: I am speechless … It's NL50. Stop trying to get so fancy. (#1038)
But then, Silent_0ne has an explosive session and is up an incredible $2800 in one day, that’s 56 buy ins! The posters go wild as he moves into 3rd place on the 50nl Ultimate Grinder leaderboard:
vaike $3,142, 19.38 Hands BB/100
zzn1980 $2,833, 2.46 Hands BB/100
Silent_0ne69 $2,634, 5.19 Hands B/100
For the first time people are starting to believe that he can do this. Fast forward to the next day, December 13th and with another miraculous winning session he reaches number one on the leaderboard. He has $3.4k profit at 50nl and number two is close behind with $3.1k, if he can maintain his win rate of 6b/100 hands then he should have a very real chance of making an incredible comeback. 14th December. Fees posts:
Fees: still taking action, I want 2:1
Despite Silent_0ne being top of the leaderboard when he posted this and Fees already buying action Fees seemed willing to take 2:1 in Silent_0ne’s favour. Soon after, a poster in the thread reveals that:
tightmaniac: fees is 4th
It is revealed that Fees who is normally a 2000nl player is playing 50nl HU and is 4th on the leaderboard. HU 50nl still counts towards the 50nl leaderboard. With the higher rate of hands of HU, bigger winrates of HU and Fees' skill, it could mean he would soon reach the top of the leaderboard. 10 minutes after TightManic’s post Fees lowers his odds:
Fees: Looking to take action on this at 1:1 (#1180)
The judge weighs in:
Jalexand42: If fees' didn't disclose this to whoever has his action, it's obviously pretty questionable, although that probably should have been asked. As far as the prop bet tho, I specifically asked Silent whether HU players should be included/excluded and he said included. The rules clearly don't exclude some random player from dropping down and playing $50nl (or $100nl for the original bet). They DO clearly state that people who bet against Silent one as part of the prop bet are NOT allowed to interfere with the bet, but I don't have anything to do with whatever side action fees may have on this. I told kerpowski last night that I didn't want him to play HU to try to win the badge, since I felt like it was a gray area in the intent of the rules (since he obviously doesn't normally play those stakes). Kind of sucks for OP if this is going on, but I can't really change the rules after it's started since that would affect the people that bet against Silent. (#1196)
As of the 15 December Silent_0ne was still top of the board with $4.4k and most posters were expressing their displeasure if Fees were to continue playing 50nl. Silent_0ne drops this bombshell:
Silent_0ne: ‘2. Actions must be in accordance with the intent of having a fair prop bet. No actions (chip dumping, collusion, ghosting/coaching players on Silent_0ne's tables, etc) can be taken with the intent to affect the outcome of the prop bet. Violations will result in the violator's action being forfeited and may result in additional modification/extention to neutralize the interference.’ [Silent_0ne is quoting the rules here.] ‘The spirit of the bet is that OP is competing against players who 'really' play NL100, both ring and heads up.’ I know a friend of Fees and his friend said he was legit and everything. alittle after the bet started and action was full, fees approached me and my friend about taking additional action at 10 to 1. my friend and I took an additional 2.5k to his 25k and escrowed to wcgrider. the bet was under the assumption that the same rules as the 100nl bet were going to be used, and whatever the judge decides would be final. so given the quotes above, it is against the rules that someone betting against me should also be able to compete against me given that he does not regularly play at 50nl (he plays 6max 2knl and WON the UGL badge last month at that stake) also, im not allowed to play 50nl HU which is really fishy and easy to win the UGL badge at if you put in enough volume. regardless of if fees action is with Jalex or not, i think the same rules apply, because he is not a regular at the stakes and he accepted the same rules when making the bet with my friend and I going to eat something then start up a grind session, hopefully I continue to crush and run good, though my heart has sunk when I looked at fees in forth, and I feel ill and tilted (#1205)
Silent_0ne posted that he did a deal, off with main thread with 10 to 1 odds (Fees betting $25k to Silent_0ne’s $2.5k that Silent_0ne will win ultimate grinder 50nl) with Fees and that WCGRider (Doug Polk, currently of Upswing Poker and poker Youtube fame) is the escrow, not Jalexand42. Most posters now seem outraged:
King Fish: Wow what an angle shoot by Fees on this. This does help define the measure of what type of person he is that he is even attempting it. (#1207) Tumaterminator: sickest hustle ever. (#1210) kp1022: wait, doeboyfre$h is fees? he sat me in 50nl HU a few days ago FWIW after PTR'ing him , i asked why was he playing so low? he replied, "busto" (#1234)
Some of the posters were trying to play Fees at the 50nl in attempt to slow down his winning streak and tell Fees that he is breaking the rules. Silent_0ne expressed his displeasure and downed mental state:
Silent_0ne: this is horrible. im going to start my first grind right now. imo what fees is doing is against the rules and is unfair. i really hope i dont lose alot right now, but im in a pretty poor emotional state please whoever is decent, sit it up with fees and discouarge him to continue what hes doing. 2knl player won badge last month, makes big bet against me and decides to compete for 50nl badge against me... (#1267)
For the first time in a few days Fees posts:
Fees: Hey, Just to clear a few things up,
I haven't broken any rules, there isn't a rule that explicitly states that I cannot win the UGL.
I'm not trying to scam/do anything shady/etc, when I made the bet I posted in this thread asking if a bettor could win the UGL […] anyway I'm going to try and win the 50nl UGL this month... I haven't done anything wrong and there is nothing wrong with me going for it.
Then, an enflamed debate about the rules erupts, almost every poster is furious at Fees
Silent_0ne: had a conversation with WCGRider over the phone. the assumption was that jalex is the judge of this bet, and his word is final. WCGRider is simply just an escrow. fees and I agreed on the rules of the bet and having jalex of the judge. #1352
Then WCGRider (Doug Polk) posts for the first time:
WCGRider: Wanted to make a quick post here because i talked to colin earlier about this and i want to clear up a few things. First off, I was never told i was going to be an escrow. I literally woke up with colins [Silent_0ne] money in my account. I was never asked anything, I was never told anything, I just was sent the money and thats it. So now im being brought into this to make a decision, which i dont think really is fair. I haven't read any of this thread, I haven't read the rules. Also, fees has to be one of my best friends here in las vegas, and I want that to be clear before i give my opinion about this. I think its sort of unfair that i get put into this situation.
jalexand42 then posts his judgment in a lengthy post (#1526) but I believe this excerpt sums it up:
jalexand42: So, while it is not UNFAIR of fees to be playing $50nl, he has CLEARLY taken actions that will influence the outcome of the bet IF he wins the UGL for $50nl for December. Fees would clearly NOT be playing $50nl (and in fact is still playing his normal stakes) if he didn't have action on this bet. Fees also clearly understood this was a questionable area with regard to the rules based on his posts in this thread and he did not clarify it with the judge. He posts also indicate clearly that he felt he was subject to the rules. Therefore, I rule that Fees' standing on the UGL for December WILL BE IGNORED for purposes of determining this bet if he wins.
Many posters praise Jalexand42. But Jalexand42 does not have the money from the sidebet between Silent_0ne and Fees. WCGrider does. Silent_0ne gives his piece of mind and a quick poker update:
Silent_0ne: yes, i agree with this [Jalexand42's judgment]. also, fees can keep the 25k in the bet without any forfiet. im just really happy things worked out okay. however i probably should have read this before my session I just played. probably wouldnt have spewed as much at the endodays been my worst day since the start of the 50nl bet so far. gonna play 1 more session later tonight and going to be in alot better and focused mood (#1561)
Then, another bombshell drops, a friend of WCRrider’s reveals that Fees didn’t even escrow his money to Doug: theskillzdatklls: Afaik, Fees did not ship his $25k share to Doug, only Colin [Silent_0ne] sent his part. (#1669) 2+2 reacts:
Handbaggio: LOL wtf, fees hasn't escrowed his bet??? (#1676) rnb0sprnkles: LOL and when I thought the drama was starting to die down, the thread gets even crazier (#1698)
Jalexand42 has a conversation with WCGRider to reach an agreement and reports:
Jalexand42: Okay, so here's the summary of my conversation with WCGRider:
He is only holding Silent & the_most's action, $2,500.
He did talk to Fees. Fees told him he was going to talk to Colin [Silent_0ne] today and 'hopes to work out something reasonable'.
I asked what that means, he said he didn't feel like he could tell me, because he felt like what Fees told him was as a friend, but that it sounded fair in WCGRider's opinion.
WCGRider said he thought my decision making sounded reasonable.
WCGrider said that noone told him what to do, so he figured he was just holding on to Silent's money.
I told WCGrider I was willing for him to ship me the $2.5k now if he was feeling uncomfortable, he said he'd wait to see what Silent & Fees work out. ( #1703)
Back to actual poker and Silent_0ne reports a bad losing session on the 16th December citing all the ongoing drama:
Silent_0ne: 22 buyin downswing im playing really bad right now, and I really wish I didn't have to think about and deal with all these other problems.
The community are rooting really hard to him at this point and are all telling him to stay strong. Things start to get messy when Jalexand42 speaks with WCGRider and Fees and in a long post ( #1957) said that WCGRider protested his participation was unfair and Jalexand42 accused him of not of not already sending the $25k to Jalexand42. Fees also tried to offer Silent_0ne a $1k buy out saying it was ‘super generous’, it was refused. Silent_0ne states that the reason fees doesn't want his money escrowed by Jalexand42 is that he is afraid that his bet will be forfeited due to breaking the rules. WCGRider chimed in to defend himself (he also spoke about playing 50nl-100nl and having a rough year, which is interesting as he developed into the top HU player for a time and couldn’t get action, even at the highest stakes.) The 2+2 community then debate and lightly harass WCGRider and Fees to concede and send the money to Jalexand42. Fees finally agrees to a 50% buyout.
The Outcome
On the 17th of December and Silent_0ne slips to number 2 on the leaderboards.
vaike $3,835 ,17.44BB/100
Silent_0ne69 $3,523, 4.25BB/100
Silent_0ne then makes a post that changes everything:
Silent_0ne : Hello everyone firstly, I would like to say thank you so much to everyone who supported me throughout this bet. i cant stress how much it meant to me to see any post wishing me goodluck, or someone pming me given me some life lessons and more encouragement. ive been approached by the bettors on numerous occasions regarding a buyout. the original buyout deal offered was 33%. eventually 37% was offered, and then 44%, and finally I agreed on 50% of total wagers from all 6 bettors as their buyout. I am not really satisfied with a buyout, and I was not the one originally looking for the buyout. the bettors wanted it and I decided to see what they had to offer. what I wanted was time to spend with friends and family throughout the christmas break. With continuing this bet, I do have alot of confidence of accomplishing it, but at the expense of isolation through one of the most special times of each year. My family was mad at me when I tried explaining to them I probably wouldn't be able to particpate in any family events and have much if any celebration of christmas. my goal the next 14 days was to just grind it out 10 hours each day with breaks inbetween, and sleep. Instead I will be able to go back to my regular, stress free grinding, and shipping 50% of the total wagers after half the month as gone by. In the end, including both the 100nl and 50nl prop bets, I made a net of roughly +20k. The other two options would be risking a net of -20k or a net of +60k. I took the variance free route, and all the bettors did the same thing. None of us wanted to lose the bet obviously, so I think we worked out a fair resolution with this buyout. I have no hard feelings against fees or wcg rider. Perhaps a different scenerio would have occured if the recent issues did not occur, but thats in the past now and i'm looking forwards to a postive future. (#2511)
So, in the end all the parties involved reached a buyout agreement on the 50nl prop bet. Silent_0ne would stop playing the 50nl prop bet and would be up $20k. The community replies:
Ditch Digger: Silent, nice job. 50% is more than reasonable. (#2516) kelnel: gg on +20k, u rocked!! (#2520) shhhnake_eyes: I call this the most anticlimactic finish ever. (#2522)
Link to original thread. Note: Please note I’ve tried to be impartial in writing this. Please let me know publicly or privately if there are any errors or you feel I misrepresented something or someone. The quotes I’ve included don’t always show the full post made but I’ve included the post number in each quote so you can read it on 2+2 in full context. If you want to be fully informed you should read the whole 2+2 thread.
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